Ukraine: War or No War?

It is strange how figures like Makhno have been propped up as nationalist heroes by the far-right in Ukraine over the years, re-writing Ukrainian/Russian history to create some nationalist narrative. Putin may also be wrong that Russia is the true heir of Kievan Rus' and that Ukraine and Russia are one, but of course that doesn't have to lead to supporting Ukrainian independence or any other nationalist movement. I'm not really familiar with every detail of the current Ukraine situation, but I don't guess an anti-imperialist and anti-nationalist perspective is really popular with anyone there (except for some communist/anarchist groups).

Audio interview with Ukranian comrades:
https://a-dresden.org/2022/01/24/elephant-in-the-room-37-anarchists-and-war-in-ukraine/

adri wrote:
'I don't guess an anti-imperialist and anti-nationalist perspective is really popular with anyone there (except for some communist/anarchist groups).'

Sorry, I don't understand. Do you think some communist/anarchist groups will support imperialism or nationalism? I would say that's a negative on both counts.

Sorry, I don't understand. Do you think some communist/anarchist groups will support imperialism or nationalism? I would say that's a negative on both counts.

No? I was just observing that an internationalist perspective (against Ukrainian nationalism and Russian imperialism) seems far less common in Ukraine except among some communist/anarchist groups.

No? I was just observing that an internationalist perspective (against Ukrainian nationalism and Russian imperialism) seems far less common in Ukraine except among some communist/anarchist groups.

Is this really a surprise? It seems to me that this is the situation everywhere.

Khawaga

No? I was just observing that an internationalist perspective (against Ukrainian nationalism and Russian imperialism) seems far less common in Ukraine except among some communist/anarchist groups.

Is this really a surprise? It seems to me that this is the situation everywhere.

No, and I never claimed my initial comment to be some breakthrough analysis (it was more in the spirit of keeping a relevant conversation alive, but I think I should have let it die). I'm not sure what your problem is and I'm also not really interested.

How on earth is it possible to get that defensive based on a simple observation, that FYI, wasn't an attack on you? .

Khawaga

Is this really a surprise? It seems to me that this is the situation everywhere

Khawaga

How on earth is it possible to get that defensive based on a simple observation, that FYI, wasn't an attack on you?

Sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However I'm not sure why you felt the need to make such "simple observations" on my comments to Auld-bod, clarifying some passing remarks I made about there being too few internationalists in Ukraine. Also, asking people rhetorical questions does often come off as "attacking them," so I'm not quite sure what other response you were expecting.

I was,lamenting the sorry state of affairs everywhere. And I wasn't expecting any response tbh.

Changing the topic, I found this piece interesting as it relates to attempts to re-write Ukrainian history to support a Ukrainian-nationalist narrative, such as making Makhno and others out to be nationalists,

Federalist, regionalist and autonomist political thought in general is likely to be one of the casualties of an overly nationalist rewriting of the past that posits a sovereign, national state as the teleological outcome of history.

Ukrainian nationalists today take issue with calling the history of Ancient Rus "Russian" history and push their own self-legitimizing accounts. Russia itself hardly has any "historical claim" to its own lands, mostly acquired through violence (e.g., Russians pushing aside/subjugating Indigenous peoples in Siberia and Alaska, all there before them, as they expanded eastward, much like American westward expansion—Russia in fact sold Alaska to America, etc.). It would be nice if there were more class-based interpretations of eastern European history (a people's history of Ukraine/Russia I guess), rather than these competing nationalist/statist narratives. I suppose that would also be complicated by the fact that the lower-classes have never really been harmonious among themselves, and often actually supported rulers/causes that were contrary to their interests, as reflected today with some Ukrainians wanting closer ties with either the West or Russia and not recognizing their class-interests lie elsewhere.

ACG article: Ukraine: neither NATO nor Moscow

https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/03/ukraine-between-two-fires-anarchists-in-the-region-on-the-looming-threat-of-war

In-depth article from the CWO-ICT - Ukraine and Taiwan: Flashpoints in an Uncertain Imperialist World

Time for a topic where we can counter the war-mongering

from both sides.
I agree.
ACG article is a good article to begin with.

> It is strange how figures like Makhno have been propped up as nationalist heroes by the far-right in Ukraine over the years

Not strange. While it's true his movement fought against the White Ukranian nationalists of the time, but:

1. He's a regional hero.
2. He and his movement formed an armed organization.
3. He and his movement mobilized the population into action.
4. He and his movement fought against (some of) the Russians (some of the time).

That's good enough. They can ignore all the rest.

Actually, I would not at all be surprised if a lot of the Makhnovist supporters were somewhere on the spectrum between nationalistic-but-not-the-white-kind and actual committed anarchists. Or "non-denominational insurgents"

> Sorry, I don't understand. Do you think some communist/anarchist groups will support imperialism or nationalism?

Oh, that's sure to happen. I've seen this since 2014 already, where some people I knew as Anarchists suddenly got very nationalistically-sympathetic to the Ukraine.

It's a bit like how in the first world war many socialist movements and parties supported their own state in the war, because obviously the other guys were evil / enemies of the working class while "their" own states are somehow just defending themselves etc.

New text from Ukranian comrades:
https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

The linked text in post 19 from a mixed 'group' of anarchists' is well worth reading as a useful summary of the build up to the present 'crisis' conditions in Ukraine from the period of the Maiden to today and reflects the tensions, frustrations and apparent 'impossible' choices faced by many individuals with a variety of radical political views including those (anarchists or not) who perceive of themselves as primarily no more than the radical wing of a wider ''democratic camp' and aligned to a vague 'anti-imperialism'. Comparisons with choices made by Kurdish radicals in northern Syria are made for some of the same understandable reasons but with no more justification. Hard not to avoid sympathy for the personal dilemma's faced by the writers but they are a long way from any libertarian or left communist analysis or statement of political principles.

Yeah, after all their criticisms of the earlier "pro-Russian/pro-Ukrainian" split in about 2014, a bit surprising to find them essentially endorsing a new "pro-Ukranian" stance at the end. See here for an earlier text on that split: https://libcom.org/news/end-antifa-28112014 - although looking at it again now, the first few paragraphs of that seem a bit weird too. But easy to judge from a distance when it's not us having to weigh up the possibilities of a Russian invasion, I suppose, and a worthwhile counterbalance to some of the Russia Today-flavoured "anti-imperialist/anti-fascist" shit I've been seeing elsewhere of late.

Did the authors of the article in post 19 speak with any anarchists/anarchist groups in Russia?

Wasn't involved in it myself, but they say they did: "Besides us, the text was edited by more than ten people, including participants in the events described in the text, journalists who checked the accuracy of our claims, and anarchists from Russia, Belarus, and Europe. We received many corrections and clarifications in order to write the most objective text possible."

Latest position of the ICC on the Ukraine crisis: https://en.internationalism.org/content/17144/ukraine-worsening-military-tensions-eastern-europe

epk

> It is strange how figures like Makhno have been propped up as nationalist heroes by the far-right in Ukraine over the years

Not strange. While it's true his movement fought against the White Ukranian nationalists of the time, but:

1. He's a regional hero.
2. He and his movement formed an armed organization.
3. He and his movement mobilized the population into action.
4. He and his movement fought against (some of) the Russians (some of the time).

That's good enough. They can ignore all the rest.

Actually, I would not at all be surprised if a lot of the Makhnovist supporters were somewhere on the spectrum between nationalistic-but-not-the-white-kind and actual committed anarchists. Or "non-denominational insurgents"

That's ignoring quite a bit, like him saying "I'm an anarchist of the Bakunin-Kropotkin stripe," but I guess if all that's pushed aside then it's not so strange. He's also popular with actual anarchists (scroll down to see anarchists marching with banner) within Ukraine, so it is a bit odd how he's celebrated simultaneously by both ends of the political spectrum. Maybe it's not so strange for Ukraine/Russia, since I hear conspiratorial thinking/misinformation is quite bad there compared with other places, though I don't know how true that is.

R Totale

Wasn't involved in it myself, but they say they did: "Besides us, the text was edited by more than ten people, including participants in the events described in the text, journalists who checked the accuracy of our claims, and anarchists from Russia, Belarus, and Europe. We received many corrections and clarifications in order to write the most objective text possible."

I thought if they had spoken with Russian anarchists across the border they might have come to a different conclusion. I guess not.

I don't really get it. Why would they not take a 'no war but class war stance' rather than side with Ukrainian military against a Russian invasion. I guess its easy to judge when I am as far away from it as Scotland though.

I was also hoping that if this does actually come to war then it would be almost impossible to get the working class to fight it. I guess all they have to do though is say peace, freedom and democracy is om the line so go fight for your country against the invaders, whilst at the same time taking the mask of peace, freedom and democracy off and forcing us to fight it.

I mean, I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it myself, but in the context of the previous Maidan events, where the Ukrainian far-right gained a great deal of legitimacy by presenting themselves as the force most willing and able to challenge Yanukovych, I can see why they'd be concerned about a further round of conflict benefitting Ukranian nationalists more than anyone else, and having the desire to set themselves up as an alternative pole of attraction for people wanting to resist a possible occupation.
Anyway, we now have a statement from Autonomous Action, which in some ways sounds closer to that Ukranian article than to what I'd think of as a classical nwbcw position:
https://libcom.org/news/against-annexations-imperial-aggression-22022022
"We urge you to counter the Kremlin’s aggression by any means you see fit. Against the seizure of territories under any pretext, against sending the Russian army to the Donbass, against militarization. And ultimately, against the war. Take to the streets, spread the word, talk to the people around you—you know what to do. Do not be silent. Take action. Even a small screw can jam the gears of a death machine.

Against all borders, against all empires, against all wars!"

Although I guess "We urge you to counter the Kremlin’s aggression by any means you see fit" maybe reads differently if you interpret it as addressed to Russian proletarians rather than Ukranian ones?

Fwiw, avtonom also published this, which as the title suggests, is probably more straightforwardly pro-Ukranian than that Ukranian article:
https://avtonom.org/en/author_columns/why-should-we-support-ukraine

From the IWG-ICT - Internationalists Fight Against the Movements Towards War of "Their" Governments with Class Struggle

Translation of a statement from the Italian FAI:
https://organisemagazine.org.uk/2022/02/24/against-the-war-about-situation-in-ukraine-statement/

https://peopleandnature.wordpress.com/2022/02/24/russian-and-ukrainian-voices-against-putins-war/

Appeal from ABC Dresden:
https://abcdd.org/en/2022/02/24/support-anarchist-community-in-ukrain-during-war/

Short response from the ACG here:
https://anarchistcommunism.org/2022/02/24/their-war-or-class-war/

New audio interview: https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org/post/2022/02/25/anarchists-in-ukraine-against-war/

See also: https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/24/russia-and-ukraine-grassroots-resistance-to-putins-invasion

An ICT statement is in the works, in the meantime leaflet from the CWO - Ukraine: Neither NATO nor Putin! No War but the Class War!

I can think of this generalized strategy if I be in the situation that Russians and Ukrainians anarchists are in:
Assuming anarchism is understood properly in theory,
- Concept of foreign invaders doesn't exists for me, because local rulers are as bad. How they treat my collective is important.
- I build my anarchists collective environment against the environment that is forced to me, no matter what kind of authority is forcing that to me.
- If my collective is weak, I try to find ways to become strong. If my collective is strong, I go to action in order to expand my territory. This is what authoritarians do too!

Ukrainian men being forced to "stay and fight":

"It is only women and children (coming through) because for men it is forbidden. We leave all our fathers, men, husbands at home and it feels like shit," said Ludmila, 30. When asked if she was worried about her husband, Ludmila broke down in tears.

Ukrainian rules restrict men aged 18-60, who could be conscripted, from crossing the borders.

Statement by Australian anarchist-communists on the invasion:

https://www.redblacknotes.com/2022/02/26/no-war-but-the-class-war/

Anarkismo statement:
https://www.anarchistcommunism.org/2022/02/25/ukraine-international-statement/

I like articles form sherbu-kteer and Totale, thanks. Also, thanks for the interview link from Totale,

About the interview,

I like the interviewee's approach in confronting Russia's invasion. I add, if the situation is frustrating, I agree fleeing is not a good idea, but doing nothing could be a good approach if the risk is high.

He doesn't see the role of western powers in creating the situation there. I think he should. Fake revolution is not always obvious or even not necessarily through agents, it could be completely politically cultural. Propaganda always creates false hope in order to influence in better situation in future. You will realize how you have been tricked when the pacts, alliances and contracts come.

His request for financial support in emergency cases must be taken seriously. As anarchists, we are absolutely outnumbered, we only have each other.

Two new texts from Russian anarchists:
https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/26/russian-anarchists-on-resisting-the-invasion-of-ukraine-updates-and-analysis
The interview posted above has now been fully transcribed:
https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org/post/2022/02/25/anarchists-in-ukraine-against-war/

Also, another international statement, signed by various groups including Plan C, LabourNet, IP in Poland and others: https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org/post/2022/02/25/anarchists-in-ukraine-against-war/

ICT statement - War in Ukraine: Imperialist Rivalry in a Global Economic Crisis

Mutual Aid operations are currently being conducted via Operation Solidarity, which is taking donations to help refugees.

The Resistance Committee has reportedly established an Anti-Authoritarian Detachment in Kyiv, currently fighting within the Territorial Defense. They are also accepting donations for equipment and international volunteers.

R Totale I think you posted the wrong link for the third thing

A retired Belarusian airborne colonel who had taken part in the servicemens protests against police and military violence against demonstrators in 2020(possibly)* released a video appealing for soldiers and officers to resist involvement in the war and to refuse their orders.

https://youtu.be/9NYgKRlS0vs

*Spoken to some Belarusians, he is who he says he is and is a retired/reserve colonel, and was involved in the protests in 2020 in Brest. However, his role was to negotiate between the authorities and the protesters, and most of them accuse him of stalling and being an obstacle. He had close connections to Viktor Sheimin a powerful and ruthless key Lukashenko ally. Curiously, he fled the country soon after and hasn't been back since. So this video could be one of three things, he's had a genuine change of heart, he's convinced his old bosses are doomed and is trying to appeal to the opposition, or he still has contacts with some key Belarus officials and is using his platform to reflect opposition within it to being sucked into a bloody conflict.

About ICT statement,
imperialist war doesn't do anything with capitalism being in crisis or even with capitalism in particular. Imperialist rivalry has always been part of human culture. It has always come with lies. It is not the case that capitalism was progressive then after monopoly formation capitalism became reactionary. Capitalism and Imperialism grew hand in hand. Capitalists were even slave owners. I have read reports of tribal wars by anthropologists. When a tribe invade another tribe, that is imperialist rivalry too, in small scale and as non developed form of it. We can say capitalism is continuation of that but not that capitalism is cause of that. Also, creating international Marxists organization to confront imperialist rivalry is a good idea, but Marxists must explain the failure of their past internationals. I don't think Marxists can create a new international because of credential of Marxism in theory and practice. Marxism won't grow properly anymore.
The best way to confront Russian invasion is to form anarchist community against any forces that act as enemy to that community. Differentiating between good evil and bad evil is bad idea. Also, anarchist communities should be peacefully expansionist not isolationist, like religious groups who agitate and penetrate. We are different from religious group because we see the world scientifically.

The best way to confront Russian invasion is to form anarchist community against any forces that act as enemy to that community.

Speaking of nonsense, have I mentioned how silly it is to continually cheerlead for "Ukrainian anarchists" as if non-anarchist communists didn't exist, and as if non-anarchist communists wouldn't be part of any revolution? While I'm not opposed to Ukrainian anarchists/communists taking up arms, I'm also pretty skeptical about "forming anarchist communities to confront Russians (and Ukrainian nationalists?) who are better-equipped and have more nukes," which seems sort of reckless to me; this isn't the Russian Civil War. It is already a disgrace that Ukrainian men are being forced to "stay and fight" (being fed that "old lie" that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country) as opposed to flee like the rest of their families have already done.

THe statement signed by among others, Plan C, is here:
https://www.transnational-strike.info/2022/02/24/no-to-war-for-a-transnational-politics-of-peace/?fbclid=IwAR1u1Rh28YQZye1-v7QuupXSfCTsgNSmLvXDobAjNTblD81RcKqV7WWypTY

noslavery

About ICT statement,
imperialist war doesn't do anything with capitalism being in crisis or even with capitalism in particular. Imperialist rivalry has always been part of human culture. It has always come with lies. It is not the case that capitalism was progressive then after monopoly formation capitalism became reactionary. Capitalism and Imperialism grew hand in hand. Capitalists were even slave owners. I have read reports of tribal wars by anthropologists. When a tribe invade another tribe, that is imperialist rivalry too, in small scale and as non developed form of it. We can say capitalism is continuation of that but not that capitalism is cause of that. Also, creating international Marxists organization to confront imperialist rivalry is a good idea, but Marxists must explain the failure of their past internationals. I don't think Marxists can create a new international because of credential of Marxism in theory and practice. Marxism won't grow properly anymore.
The best way to confront Russian invasion is to form anarchist community against any forces that act as enemy to that community. Differentiating between good evil and bad evil is bad idea. Also, anarchist communities should be peacefully expansionist not isolationist, like religious groups who agitate and penetrate. We are different from religious group because we see the world scientifically.

Just quickly a few points: imperialism has not "always been part of human culture"; we mean something specific by imperialism, not just conflict in the abstract; capitalism did have an ascendant phase (which doesn't mean it was "good"); Marxists have explained the failure of previous Internationals (see e.g. this for a start); the struggle of the global working class, not the formation of some intentional communities, is the only real solution to the horrors of capitalism.

Yep, that transnational-strike one is what I was meaning to post.

Commentary from a libcom adjacent perspective in Ukraine here: https://twitter.com/problemicist

Are the media reports true that the Russian advance has been slower than they wanted, that around 4,000 Russian soldiers have been killed and that troops are mutinying and refusing to fight, or is this just the western media exaggerating? Absolutely tragic as well if that many people have already been killed.

ICC leaflet on the war:
https://en.internationalism.org/content/17148/capitalism-war-war-capitalism-international-leaflet

Speaking of nonsense, have I mentioned how silly it is to continually cheerlead for "Ukrainian anarchists" as if non-anarchist communists didn't exist, and as if non-anarchist communists wouldn't be part of any revolution? While I'm not opposed to Ukrainian anarchists/communists taking up arms,

Yes, this is the way I think. I think only anarchists are truly revolutionary because they are truly against authoritarianism which has divided humans culture into two form of oppressors and victims. Only those non anarchists communist are revolutionary who accept principle or non-authoritarianism in forming group work, group work in any form. Few Marxists has accepted that principle.
If anarchists are not equip to confront occupiers or the local authoritarian state or fascists elements, they can chose not flee, they can stay among ordinary people and form their group patiently until anarchist culture develops.

Just quickly a few points: imperialism has not "always been part of human culture"; we mean something specific by imperialism, not just conflict in the abstract; capitalism did have an ascendant phase (which doesn't mean it was "good"); Marxists have explained the failure of previous Internationals (see e.g. this for a start); the struggle of the global working class, not the formation of some intentional communities, is the only real solution to the horrors of capitalism.

You invent your definition of imperialism, I make mine. By my definition, invading any other group is imperialism. Modern imperialism is evolution of that behavior long long time ago. The goal, no matter capitalistic or feudalistic or for slavery is to collect and control material and human resources for invader.
It is better Marxists explain their own failure of trying to lead communist movement and leading it to a form of fascist state capitalism. Marx concept of progress is obstacle to communism. In his concept, capitalists are not reactionary while exploit workers, they only become reactionary if technical requirement is satisfied!!! With that concept, any repression could be justified. In my view of anarchist, imperialism is not technical, it is human, real, it is invading to control material and human resources for invader. Soviet Union leaders were perhaps the first imperialists who invented "color" revolution by promoting state capitalist ideology as revolutionary.

[Mutual Aid operations are currently being conducted via Operation Solidarity, which is taking donations to help refugees.

The Resistance Committee has reportedly established an Anti-Authoritarian Detachment in Kyiv, currently fighting within the Territorial Defense. They are also accepting donations for equipment and international volunteers.

Donation must go through known channel through face to face friendship. It is hard, but must be done.

Black Guard

Mutual Aid operations are currently being conducted via Operation Solidarity, which is taking donations to help refugees.

The Resistance Committee has reportedly established an Anti-Authoritarian Detachment in Kyiv, currently fighting within the Territorial Defense. They are also accepting donations for equipment and international volunteers.

Donate to the anarchist wing of the Ukrainian national front comrades!

Odd article on Freedom's site:

Fuck leftist westplaining.
https://freedomnews.org.uk/2022/03/04/fuck-leftist-westplaining/

bastarx

Black Guard

Mutual Aid operations are currently being conducted via Operation Solidarity, which is taking donations to help refugees.

The Resistance Committee has reportedly established an Anti-Authoritarian Detachment in Kyiv, currently fighting within the Territorial Defense. They are also accepting donations for equipment and international volunteers.

Donate to the anarchist wing of the Ukrainian national front comrades!

whats that mean?

rat

Odd article on Freedom's site:

Fuck leftist westplaining.
https://freedomnews.org.uk/2022/03/04/fuck-leftist-westplaining/

whats odd about it? are you surprised people are pissed with how much of the western left as behaved? the things the article complains about make sense to me

I think that article sucks too, I don't know if my reasons are the same as Rat's but the thing is pretty bad. You get this ridiculous patronising stuff about how "you, the Westerners, will never get it", it just goes on and on like that complaing about tankies, third-worldists, Assadists, etc. I hate them too, but you have to balance that with the (much louder, at this point) sentiments going in the opposite direction. An idiot holding an SSNP flag at May Day in 2017 is annoying and offensive, but so is the prospect of nuclear war. Not only are the bourgeois press, politicians, etc trying to drum up war against Russia, you also get people within anarchist and left-wing cirlces trying to justify a position of "national defense", under whatever banner they can find – anti-imperialism, anti-fascism, whatever. I can understand why social-democrats would flock to such awful positions but in this very thread you have the example of some kind of "anti-authoritarian" militia being formed as a component of the Ukrainian military reserve.

For me one of the most important elements of the political tendency I belong to, that libcom more or less represents, is that of an intransigent opposition to all capitalist war, even in impossibly hard circumstances (like WWII). Of course, this means being critical of Putin apologia, but it also means being critical of apologia for western imperialism. I am genuinely quite surprised this article was printed in Freedom at all, and am even more surprised that this person is actually an editor of Freedom. The stuff about NATO is just sheer nationalist garbage, talking about "we" and "us" in terms of the geopolitics of governments with regard to NATO, as if national populations are just classless blobs. At one point the author begins pleading for leftist Westerners to outline an alternative defense pact for Europe to replace NATO:

We see NATO in a completely different, and I dare say much more nuanced way. We are not fans of it, and we can agree with you on many, many reasons to criticise it. But when you say “Fuck NATO” or “End NATO expansion”, what I hear is that you do not care about the safety and wellbeing of my Eastern European friends, family and comrades [...] Further, you talk about how you desire to stop “NATO expansion” but you don’t really mention what, exactly, would be a viable alternative to it. This is not acceptable at all, it just shows your privilege of growing up in a country where your life story was not littered with, how exciting, tantrums and aggressions of various scales of this great, unpredictable force that assumes it can throw its way anywhere where there is no NATO. So tell me, how exactly will you assure our safety? What is this NATO alternative you are advocating for?

(I should add I find the author's attempt to paint themselves as a victim of Orientalism to be pretty silly, borderline offensive as an Arab myself; not only is their definition of Orientalism something like "when Western Europeans are patronising and rude to me", they also don't seem to realise that they're a Polish person who has apparently lived in the UK since 2004. Has anyone ever considered Kraków to be part of the Orient?)

I am personally perfectly happy to take "no war but the class war" as my guiding principle, and find equivocating around it on the part of leftists who should know better to be pretty nauseating. I sympathise with ordinary working-class people in Ukraine more than I do anyone else, but I can hardly look positively at the way people are rallying around the Ukrainian state. At best, people are doing this out of desperation, but that shouldn't be mistaken for positive politics.

radicalgraffiti

bastarx

Black Guard

Mutual Aid operations are currently being conducted via Operation Solidarity, which is taking donations to help refugees.

The Resistance Committee has reportedly established an Anti-Authoritarian Detachment in Kyiv, currently fighting within the Territorial Defense. They are also accepting donations for equipment and international volunteers.

Donate to the anarchist wing of the Ukrainian national front c omrades!

whats that mean?

It means I'm taking the piss out of all the moronic anarcho-trenchists who have fallen into line behind Ukraine and its NATO backers. At least in Rojava there was a fake revolution as an excuse for lining up with the USA.

With the Freedom News article I disagree with it and think the no war but class war approach is the only one that can be taken and is the only moral one as well. I think I still get where they might be coming from though.

From over here its easy to say fuck all wars when we are not facing the reality of having our cities bombed and invaded by another power. We would never really have to worry about this because our countries have powerful militaries, nuclear weapons and are part of NATO. None of those things make the world any safer and they are ultimately just Western countries asserting their imperialist ambitions on the world, but it does deter any attack on them and so we who live in these nations are pretty much ensured relative peace and security and get to enjoy more civil liberties than would in more autocratic and dictatorial countries. I can understand why someone from outside would want to be part of this is all I am saying, although don't get why 'leftists' would be writing an article supporting NATO membership.

There is no really any easy position to take though. Ideally I'd say Russian Soldiers should mutiny, Russian citizens should revolt. Ukrainians should do the same and together they should sabotage the ability of all sides to wage war on each other. But thats a lot easier said than done, meanwhile what are we in the west to do?

Internationalist message from workers in Iran - No War but the Class War: Statements from the Haft Tappeh Workers (Iran)

I agree with you there sherbu-kteer.

Christ, that Freedom article was fucking awful, chock full of sub-nationalist, pro NATO (with reservations) and spurious idpol garbage. It amazes me that it was in Freedom (though they have had some really bad articles in the past).

That said, I understand why the no war but the class war position can sometimes seem inadequate, particularly when someone is more directly or personally affected or connected to an unfolding tragedy such as this. But being understanding is no excuse for jettisoning basic class struggle revolutionary internationalism.

Oh, and sherbu-kteer's response was top notch.

Footage of an apparent mass strike at a factory in Tartarstan over underpaid wages due to the ruble exchange rate.

Probably just the beginning if the predictions re: Russia's economy are anything to go by.

As an anarchist I think antiwar movement must be against all three parties of the war. Ukrainian anarchists can do whatever they want to protect themself wisely except collaborating with reactionary forces. It is better to flee than collaborate. I would stay with ordinary people and do nothing but carefully discussion the truth of the situation. I have almost been in this situation and I stayed for two years and did nothing but taking about the truth of the war. Who says taking is not action? Whatever takes energy from us is action. We have different forms of actions in different situations.

I hope NATO and Ukraine state accept Russian conditions to finish this bloodshed. What stupid Russian capitalists demands are not that bad and is easy to accept. I have not studied WW II carefully. I guess there were no demands but murdering Jewish people and forcing submission. Here we have Russian demands that are reasonable under authoritarian rules. Many large states separated from USSR, they didn't say anything. They just want three small regions and neutrality.

(I don't know if this belongs here or in a different thread, feel free to bump it if so).

Given it looks like some pretty big economic shocks are potentially on the way (food prices, energy prices, etc.), do anarchist groups around the world need to start looking into doing more organisation in this area more generally?

If things continue as they are I could see a massively increased need for mutual aid in the coming months (on top of humanitarian assistance related to the war itself).

ACG response to two recent articles on the Freedom website: Identity, nationalism and xenophobia at Freedom

I notice that Freedom has now airbrushed out some of the virulently xenophobic shite, but it's still an utter arse of an article that should never have seen the light of day on an anarchist website. Disgusting, but that's where idpol takes you.

Here's the text pre airbrush, with offending parts emphasised:

    some observers are voicing their concerns about the sort of patriotism we can see in Ukraine, but Ukrainian resistance to Russia is not the same sort of nationalism we get nervous about in the UK. From the outside, seeing crowds waving national flags, joining armed forces, and defending state borders might appear to be the sort of harmful violent devoted patriotism we’ve spent our lives campaigning against. But this isn’t comparable to the UK. Here, we can be justifiably anxious about flag-waving and militaristic language around “defending our land”. The English and the Union flags have both been backdrops to street and state-level fascism. They each conjure up mental images of the EDL, Combat 18, bricks through Muslim families’ windows, “send the Bulgarians back to where they came from”, tories and poppy shaggers, Morrissey, the Brexit campaign, This is England, and that one day last summer when everyone fucking hated Italy. Whether you’re foreign or not, many of us have no time nor tolerance for any sort of pride in this country. And we’re right to oppose it; British nationalism is and has always been a vehicle of absolute fucking cruelty across the world.

We can’t risk assuming the same logic applies when Ukraine and the UK are incomparable. While the latter is literally an imperialist force, nationalism or patriotism (or however we feel most comfortable defining it in English) can be empowering and important for people who are under threat of imperialist invasion. Around the world, the fights for citizenship, autonomy, and self-determination come alongside asserting certain flags, languages, religions, and cultures. This isn’t the same as far-right, neo-nazi groups who do it on behalf of somewhere like England. Fascism punches down, resistance is not the same. From Ukraine to Scotland to Western Sahara to Palestine to Tatarstan, we stand with the people resisting imperialism.

Bad-faith accusations of Russophobia are corrupting our ability to properly criticise how pointless it is to arbitrarily ban everything Russian. I get that Russian people often get tied closely to the actions of the state and it makes sense, Russians have famously played a big part in the formation and destruction of governments. Russians and Russian things are often seen as political even if they’re not. Everything is pushed through some ideological prism and used for endless manipulations of the political spectrum. And while it is truly understandable that many people hate Russia and Russians and anything to do with Russia, and more power to them, part of the narrative Putin is giving to Russians is that he is the only person on their side. “It’s us against them”. He says the rest of the world hates us, watch how they treat us. He says Ukrainians are Russophobes (imagine). The insular, exceptional nationalism which Putin has been carefully nurturing and weaponising will only become more effective if the rest of the world turns its back on Russian people.

It also isn’t anti-left to be Russophobic, but taking Russian bands off festival line-ups also isn’t going to help anyone.

https://www.anarchistcommunism.org/2022/03/04/the-only-war-to-end-all-wars/

Another statement outlining the no war but class war position.

I am going to sound a grump for saying this, but I'd like to see something thats a bit of a longer read than all these articles filled with slogans and basically just outlining the anarchist position. A lot of them make one or two really good points but then its not discussed in any more detail. Like with the one above mentioning how wars have been going on all over the world since the 2nd World War, that its systemic to capitalism and the only reason we've had peace in the west is because superpower conflicts have been thought by proxy wars in Africa, South America and Asia.

So ok but how exactly is imperialism and war systemic to capitalism and what's NATO's role in this?

I know the issue is complicated but its where we need really solid analysis to build and strengthen an anti-war anti-imperialist movement.

I'd write this myself if I could but I too only really get the bare bones of the argument and struggle to grasp the detail of how this all unfolds.

Scallywag, check out this article I've posted earlier on in the thread. It was written before the invasion started, but it's a longer read which explains how we go to where we are now.

Ukraine and Taiwan: Flashpoints in an Uncertain Imperialist World

@Dyjbas, thanks for sharing that I never noticed it first time, this is sort of stuff I am looking for.

@ajjohnstone, yeah I understand and don't mean to sound ungrateful either to the people who take the time and effort to write. Just think we need a lot more.

Tbh I think when we put the word anarchist or anarchism on anything then we've already put a lot of people off. Its maybe helpful to have a few things where that's toned down a bit or maybe placed at the end in the form of links to more information. It makes it easier to share it with people and hope that it will be read.

I've been relooking at the Against Nationalism AFED pamphlet. It was one of the 1st things shared with me on this site and was useful in trying to understand why capitalist states go to war with each other.

Could do with having something like that updated for the situation in Ukraine. Maybe call it Against Imperialism.

https://libcom.org/library/against-nationalism

Oh you're moaning on here as well. Good-oh. For reference (not that you asked of course) the author of that article is part Russian and it was intended in a similar vein to an English person saying "yep, totally understand why you'd hate the English." I don't agree with everything in there, but it's also a personal view piece expressing frustration with a particular Western viewpoint, not a Freedom editorial.

We did subsequently change a couple of bits as people picked them out (sure, must be "airbrushing" - reason 4965 why I can't fucking stand these sorts of arguments) because fair enough, not in line with our views and could provide cover for people harassing Russians, but ffs the rest of that paragraph reads:

"... part of the narrative Putin is giving to Russians is that he is the only person on their side. “It’s us against them”. He says the rest of the world hates us, watch how they treat us. He says Ukrainians are Russophobes (imagine). The insular, exceptional nationalism which Putin has been carefully nurturing and weaponising will only become more effective if the rest of the world turns its back on Russian people."

So it's quite clear what the actual intent is, yet "don't turn your back on Russian people" becomes a headline of "nationalist xenophobic Idpol."

Why does everything have to be framed as a fucking gotcha with you and spread around whatever platform will listen like a declaration of hostilities? JFC.

The original article was appalling and contained nationalistic and xenophobic comments. And for you to use someone's nationality (identity) as a reason to justify this only makes it worse, so you'd do well to stop digging here.

"Not that you asked of course."

The ACG national secretary emailed Freedom about the article. To the best of my knowledge, the natsec didn't get a reply. After we posted the article, no one from Freedom informed us that the most egregious bits had been removed either. We were subsequently met with responses from third parties pretty much saying "but it doesn't say what you said it does!" So we added the original unedited text for context.

"Why does everything have to be framed as a fucking gotcha with you people?"

There's no "gotcha". I agree with you that "airbrushed" is probably over-egging the pudding, and for that I apologise. But a simple admission that you'd published a fucked up article and binned it off (rather than quietly editing it well after the balloon's gone up) would have sufficed. Instead, we got silence, and now, you're doubling-down on the article. It's not a good look.

for you to use someone's nationality (identity) as a reason to justify this

I have no interest in justifying anything, I'm telling you the context, if you decide to fit that into your "everything wrong in the world is idpol" crusade that's your business. Frankly if you're at the point of denying that it might be relevant that the person saying "I get that you don't like Russians" is in fact Russian then that sounds like a you thing. And you still haven't admitted that maybe the specific line saying "don't turn your back on Russians" in the offending paragraph might indicate that maybe the Russian author is not coming from a place of "nationalistic xenophobia" against Russians, as your own actual headline suggests.

The ACG national secretary emailed Freedom about the article.

You emailed us the same aggy article that you'd put out in public. "Hey you nationalist xenophobes" is less a conversation opener than a thrown pint, and I'm not surprised the editor didn't reply.

a simple admission that you'd published a fucked up article and binned it off

So basically, having done your best to create a public online shaming rather than have a reasonable conversation starting from a position of good faith, us changing the text without making a similar public fuss about it has annoyed you and you want a youtube mea culpa.

Oh we are so very sorry, we were rongs, pleaz don't cancels us, tears stream down face.

etc etc.

Oh and re: Gotchas:

We have long warned that the danger of identity politics was that it was leading the unwary into right wing territory. And now we have evidence

When ACG finally stops obsessing over Finding The Evidence about idpol it'll be a damn good thing, imo, might mean you can start approaching the chaotic state of political conversation as it actually exists rather than trying to fit it all into one easy giant silo.

Okay, I'm not going to carry this row on. I like Freedom, I've been an occasional reader for decades and a one time subscriber. And if you are who I think you are, I've never had any beef with you.

Freedom and the ACG are political groups. Sometimes we don't agree. But political criticism and polemic is what we do and our response to your article is in line with that. In this instance, we felt that the original article seriously needed to be politically criticised. There's no editorial "no go" areas because Freedom is a fellow anarchist group.

Anyway, in the spirit of comradeship, I accept your explanations, though I don't necessarily agree with them.

Fair enough.

I am just an observer, I don't belong to any organization.

nationalism or patriotism (or however we feel most comfortable defining it in English) can be empowering and important for people who are under threat of imperialist invasion. Around the world, the fights for citizenship, autonomy, and self-determination come alongside asserting certain flags, languages, religions, and cultures. This isn’t the same as far-right, neo-nazi groups who do it on behalf of somewhere like England. Fascism punches down, resistance is not the same. From Ukraine to Scotland to Western Sahara to Palestine to Tatarstan, we stand with the people resisting imperialism.

I do not agree. We shouldn't understand anti-imperialism unconditionally, otherwise we must justify Hamas murdering ordinary Israelis. We should only support those whose resistance against imperialism is anti-authoritarian. All those fight for citizenship ... are manipulated, nationalistic, authoritarian concepts rather than anarchist concept. People have those concepts because their mind is under control by those who rule them.

And while it is truly understandable that many people hate Russia and Russians and anything to do with Russia, and more power to them, ...

"Understandable"? It depends how! Those who hate Russia and Russian are not understandable. They hate because their mind do not work right, how manipulated minds are understandable. They should love Russians and hate Russian authoritarian rulers as well as their own.

I think Ukraine is not under attack, the entire Western power is under attack. This war is between Western power vs Easter power. Ukraine is just the place that this is happening. So, Ukraine is different from UK, is not a good thinking.

I think anarchist must not simply stick to workers against capitalists, they should analyze people mind and state of their mind. If their mind is bought, they are authoritarians’ collaborator until we be able to change their mind. The whole "class" struggle is about changing people mind not give in to it.

https://anticapital0.wordpress.com/then-and-now-here-and-there/

Does anyone think the sanctions are likely to work and provoke regime change in Russia?

I say 'regime change' as opposed to revolution because is a change in the government of Russia even something we would want if that just means some other form of neoliberalism or another type of Putin?